WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

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There are companies

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that sell age verification services.

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They're selling this as child protection.

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But what they're really trying

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to do is sell a product.

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Today, I am absolutely honored

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to have Carl from System76,

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the Linux laptop manufacturer,

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to discuss a lot of interesting things,

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like, of course, the origins of System76,

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what they do, how they do it,

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what separates them from other options,

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but also a lot of really interesting

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developments, like California's

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age attestation law in Colorado's,

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and how System76 was actually a very big

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part of the movement that was able

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to get open source excluded.

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So I asked Carl about what this looks

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like behind the scenes, how you all

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can get involved, and how we can overall

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fight back against a lot of these

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initiatives to keep free software free.

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Without further ado,

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let's get into the interview.

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I'm Carl Richell, the CEO of System76.

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And is a computer manufacturer

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that specializes in Linux computers.

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In the world of tech, we're kind of old.

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We're at 20.

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This year will be, November

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will be 21 years.

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So I was 25 when I started System76.

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And I started in my basement with $1,500.

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And the dream to make Linux

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more accessible to people.

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At the time, I think it

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was, I don't remember what version

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of Windows it was at that time.

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I felt that Linux was a fantastic

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desktop at that time.

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I think we beat each other and ourselves

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up quite a bit in the open source world,

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but we make great software.

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The bugs I run across in Windows

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and iOS and Android and Mac,

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and I think we have really high,

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maybe we're a discerning group of people.

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But the Linux desktop has been fantastic

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for a really long time.

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I didn't feel like it was really

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well represented by hardware OEMs.

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They were shipping servers.

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They weren't shipping laptops.

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They weren't shipping desktops.

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I thought it deserved a dedicated company

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that didn't ship Windows,

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that shipped Linux because it was better.

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And so that's why System76 was started.

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Since then, we've just grown

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organically over the years.

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We're not really the typical Silicon

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Valley, VC startup kind of company.

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We build products and we support them

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and we support our customers' sales needs,

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helping them determine

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which products they need.

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We've grown just from doing that really,

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really well across the company

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and reinvesting in what we do up

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to the point where today we have a factory

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in Denver that we built from scratch.

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And we bring in raw materials,

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cut, shape, paint, add fasteners,

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all of the work that goes into that raw

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material becoming a computer

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that ships out at the end of the week.

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We build a Linux distribution, Pop!_OS.

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We build an entire desktop

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environment with Cosmic.

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In a lot of ways, it's surreal

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to look back on because we've become

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this really unique company that designs

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and manufactures hardware, that develops

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an open source operating system,

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that develops the entire experience that

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the user has with the desktop environment.

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And, you know, applied all

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of that experience over 20 years

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to building this experience

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that we can now deliver.

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And at this point,

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I think it's along with what's happened

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in the rest of the open source community,

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we're delivering this elegant product

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that is not just for, you know, us Linux

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geeks and people that love computers,

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but really a great product for everyone.

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So that's me and System76.

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Nice.

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Yeah.

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And I feel like to some people, especially

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if they're newer to the Linux world,

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they might have heard of System76

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from a hardware perspective.

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They might have even heard

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from Pop!_OS or Cosmic.

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But I don't know the percentage of people

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who know they're all from the same team.

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I know there's definitely a good number

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of people who do know that, but I feel

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like it's hard to dabble in those three

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different places at the same time.

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So do you want to expand a bit

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on the order of operations?

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Was it hardware first,

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then Pop!_OS, then Cosmic?

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What was the rationale

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behind starting each one,

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and what were kind of the timelines?

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Right.

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So it was starting with hardware

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and we shipped Ubuntu.

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We picked Ubuntu well before it kind

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of started taking off.

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We just believed in the ethos and the

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project and the technical excellence.

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And I think their focus on the desktop

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at that time, in particular, over server.

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That's what Mark really wanted to achieve.

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Around, I think it was 2017,

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Canonical was building

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their Unity interface.

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They started with building extensions

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to GNOME to experiment

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with their user experience, so the user

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experience they wanted to deliver.

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And then they decided to build

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a desktop environment from scratch, and

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that was going to be Unity 7, I believe.

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What happened about 2017 is that Canonical

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decided not to continue the Unity project.

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I think they had really

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good reasons for that.

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And at that time, because Unity wasn't

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coming, we decided this would be a good

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time for us to respond to our customers'

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needs that we know exist.

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And that's the impetus between each one

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of the decisions that we made over time.

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So we had customers who were frustrated

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with the number of notifications they

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were getting from their desktop.

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They were frustrated with the aesthetic.

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They weren't able to do full disk

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encryption out of the box from an OEM.

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Because you couldn't really do

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that without the OEM having the keys.

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And if the OEM has the keys,

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then that's not full disk encryption.

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That's actually private.

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So that means writing an installer

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that can have that functionality.

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So we built Pop!_OS

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to address those things

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that we knew mattered to our customers.

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That resonated with our customers

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and the broader community.

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What's unique about System76

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is that we have a huge hardware lab.

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At that point, we had already been

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shipping hardware for 12 years,

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and we always have the newest NVIDIA GPUs.

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We always have the newest

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chipsets, CPUs, AMD GPUs.

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So that means Pop!_OS had uniquely good

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hardware support across the full stack.

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So I think with the NVIDIA support

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that listed a really tight feedback

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loop between our tech support team

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that's talking to our customers,

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our sales team was talking to customers,

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we were able to build a distro

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that really resonated with people.

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The next big step was Cosmic.

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It was the exact same thing

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as starting with Pop.

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We knew what our customers wanted.

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Bringing in pieces from different places

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and trying to pull them together wasn't

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really addressing our customers' needs.

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And so we started designing desktops

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from the ground up, understanding

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where the things that we didn't

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like about what we were capable

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of doing before that.

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Things like aluminum is very soft.

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And so when a chassis manufacturer puts

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threads into aluminum, you will only get

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so many insertions and removals

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from a screw because it's just soft

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and that's what's going to happen.

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So we use steel PEM inserts instead,

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and those threads never wear up.

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So the longevity of the product is better.

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The serviceability

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and upgradability is better, you know,

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thanks to those kind of decisions.

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We use a thicker aluminum because most

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companies use one millimeter aluminum.

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Your side panels feel flimsy

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when you pull them off.

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You can see the bend.

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It doesn't feel good.

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And so we use a thicker aluminum that

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gives better durability and structure.

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We like the aesthetic of anodization,

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but it's kind of nasty

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for the environment,

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and so we didn't want to do that.

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We use powder coating

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that doesn't have any VOCs.

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It's much, much cleaner

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for the environment.

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As we move towards laptops,

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we need higher tolerances than anything,

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so we're experimenting with other types

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of finishes for laptops because powder

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coating can be a little bit thick.

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It's okay for a desktop,

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but it wouldn't work for a laptop.

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The case that we were purchasing,

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the power button, if you pushed it

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hard enough, it would pop through.

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And this was a really high-end case.

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And we're telling the manufacturer,

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we think there's a problem here.

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And they wanted like three months

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of evidence and all of these things

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just to make this manufacturing change.

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And we're like, we can't do this anymore.

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And so the power buttons

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on all of our desktops,

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they're these really high quality.

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They're like the only thing

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you touch on a desktop.

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Almost.

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You touch it the most often for sure.

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It's got to be great.

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It has this wonderful tactile feel

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and click to it.

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It's robust.

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It's never going to pop through or break.

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It's just a quality that...

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Don't challenge people.

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Yeah.

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I would be impressed.

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I would seriously be impressed.

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But it's the kind

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of quality we really wanted to deliver.

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You know, you talk about customers and you

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designing these different products.

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And I want to ask you a little bit

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about your lineup and then kind

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of how it compares

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to other Linux devices in a second here.

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But who do you overall define

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as your customers?

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Like what has overall been

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the characteristics of that?

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Are they like more beginner friendly?

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Do you see a wide range

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of expertise levels?

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Is it people's first dabble into Linux?

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Yeah, I'm just curious,

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like what you feel like your audience

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is and what they resonate with.

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I think for a lot in the open

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source community, we kind of think

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that Linux is a narrow group of people.

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It's easy to overlay ourselves onto

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who we think uses Linux, but it's actually

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much broader than people think.

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One of the stories I like to tell

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about this is we survey

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every customer for feedback.

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We get the survey response back that says,

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I love my new laptop.

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It's fantastic.

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I'm a developer, but this is too geeky.

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It's never going to be mainstream.

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And the very next survey that came

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in was a gentleman who said,

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I'm 75 years old

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and I just got this desktop.

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I'm retired.

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I absolutely love it.

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I think it'll be the last

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desktop I'll ever need.

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I understand the perception.

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But when people actually,

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it kind of goes back to what I started

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with, why we started System76.

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Desktop Linux is much, much better

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than I think we give ourselves credit for.

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That's true.

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Especially now in 2026.

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Yeah, and we tend to think

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that it's kind of exclusive in a way.

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But it really isn't.

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And the customers that we have, they do,

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certainly they lean more towards engineers

00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.520
and developers and kind

00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:16.150
of the first mover tech crowd.

00:10:16.150 --> 00:10:19.700
But it really is a broad group of people

00:10:19.700 --> 00:10:22.320
that go from all different places

00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.090
and do all sorts of different things.

00:10:24.090 --> 00:10:24.850
Very nice.

00:10:24.850 --> 00:10:26.950
If you just had to break down your overall

00:10:26.950 --> 00:10:29.600
product lineup in a few sentences,

00:10:29.920 --> 00:10:31.460
what kind of overall desktop

00:10:31.460 --> 00:10:33.160
options do you have versus laptop?

00:10:33.160 --> 00:10:34.550
And do you have any other products

00:10:34.550 --> 00:10:35.800
besides those two things?

00:10:35.800 --> 00:10:37.540
So we do offer laptops,

00:10:37.540 --> 00:10:38.800
desktops, and servers.

00:10:38.800 --> 00:10:40.400
What we try to do is offer Linux

00:10:40.400 --> 00:10:41.900
in a way that's very broad

00:10:41.900 --> 00:10:43.260
for any kind of use case.

00:10:43.260 --> 00:10:44.860
And they're incredibly powerful,

00:10:44.860 --> 00:10:46.040
incredibly versatile.

00:10:46.040 --> 00:10:47.640
So it's everything from the type

00:10:47.640 --> 00:10:48.980
of product that just like a laptop

00:10:48.980 --> 00:10:50.570
that needs really long battery life

00:10:50.570 --> 00:10:54.700
and portability to kind of crazy things,

00:10:54.700 --> 00:10:57.380
like a laptop that can have 192 gigs

00:10:57.380 --> 00:11:02.620
of memory and 5090 GPU because they need

00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:04.620
to load models into the 20,

00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:07.740
I think it's 24 gigs on the RTX.

00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:08.940
And they need to be able

00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:09.940
to move that around.

00:11:09.940 --> 00:11:12.500
We have one customer that does MRI,

00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:13.820
builds MRI machines.

00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:15.900
And when they're going to customers,

00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:17.540
they need a powerful laptop

00:11:17.540 --> 00:11:20.530
for processing that MRI in real time

00:11:20.530 --> 00:11:21.820
in front of them as they're showing

00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:23.420
them what their software can do.

00:11:23.420 --> 00:11:24.660
Desktops, it's the same,

00:11:24.660 --> 00:11:26.360
and kind of everything in between.

00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.490
For some folks, you want a really

00:11:28.490 --> 00:11:30.040
long battery life, and you want

00:11:30.040 --> 00:11:32.440
to use a GPU sometimes for gaming.

00:11:32.680 --> 00:11:33.620
So we have a lot of laptops

00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:35.520
with hybrid graphics, and we put a lot

00:11:35.520 --> 00:11:37.080
of care into the software work

00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:39.120
to ensure hybrid graphics works well,

00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.780
so the NVIDIA GPU is entirely turned off,

00:11:41.780 --> 00:11:43.480
the longest battery life possible,

00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:44.630
until you start a game,

00:11:44.630 --> 00:11:46.580
and then it'll run on the NVIDIA GPU.

00:11:46.580 --> 00:11:48.470
So those kind of things that optimize

00:11:48.470 --> 00:11:50.440
the user's experience and the customer's

00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:51.600
experience when they're looking

00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:53.350
for something that's more balanced,

00:11:53.620 --> 00:11:55.580
rather than ultra portable

00:11:55.580 --> 00:11:57.170
or extreme performance.

00:11:57.170 --> 00:11:58.870
Same for the desktop where we have

00:11:58.870 --> 00:12:01.480
small desktops that look beautiful

00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:03.060
and fit on the top of the desk.

00:12:03.060 --> 00:12:05.640
And we have huge desktops that fit three

00:12:05.640 --> 00:12:10.260
GPUs or 1600 watts and are designed

00:12:10.260 --> 00:12:13.780
to go into a lab that's tuning or doing

00:12:13.780 --> 00:12:16.540
inference or other kind of work in AI

00:12:16.540 --> 00:12:18.900
or data modeling and those kind of fields.

00:12:19.520 --> 00:12:20.080
Got it, yeah.

00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:21.590
And the real middle thing I wanted

00:12:21.590 --> 00:12:22.960
to discuss with you today

00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:24.680
is definitely, it's weird.

00:12:24.680 --> 00:12:26.460
I feel like maybe back

00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:27.790
when you started System76,

00:12:27.790 --> 00:12:29.310
you wouldn't have really guessed there

00:12:29.310 --> 00:12:32.100
would be a huge political angle to Linux.

00:12:32.680 --> 00:12:34.410
So, and it's not really political

00:12:34.410 --> 00:12:36.590
in the sense of like left versus right,

00:12:36.590 --> 00:12:38.740
like we normally see in different issues.

00:12:38.740 --> 00:12:42.840
But this whole movement slash wave of age

00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:45.500
attestation, age verification, et cetera,

00:12:46.260 --> 00:12:47.860
that California proposed, I know

00:12:47.860 --> 00:12:49.660
that things overall were toned down,

00:12:49.660 --> 00:12:51.270
but I'd love to just overall hear

00:12:51.270 --> 00:12:52.620
from you because on my end,

00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:53.960
I was trying to follow the news.

00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:55.060
I'm based out of California.

00:12:55.060 --> 00:12:55.740
And so I really wanted

00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:57.610
to make sure we were staying on top of it.

00:12:57.610 --> 00:13:00.020
And I kept seeing you kind of being cited

00:13:00.020 --> 00:13:02.420
as talking with different politicians.

00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:04.900
And you were being attributed as a big

00:13:04.900 --> 00:13:07.240
reason for why Linux was actually,

00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.840
and open source was ultimately excluded

00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.950
from these bills in some capacity.

00:13:11.950 --> 00:13:13.540
I don't know if you feel like that's true

00:13:13.540 --> 00:13:14.770
or not, but that's at least

00:13:14.770 --> 00:13:16.810
how coverage was presenting some of it.

00:13:16.810 --> 00:13:17.950
So I'd love to just hear

00:13:17.950 --> 00:13:20.000
from you what happened behind the scenes.

00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:21.720
How did you guys get involved?

00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:22.720
Who did you talk to?

00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:23.890
Of course, what you're able

00:13:23.890 --> 00:13:26.110
to share just to kind of start the story.

00:13:26.110 --> 00:13:27.300
I don't even know where to start

00:13:27.300 --> 00:13:28.210
because that's literally

00:13:28.210 --> 00:13:29.560
all I know going into this.

00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:30.880
There's two things I don't

00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:32.680
particularly enjoy, but that doesn't

00:13:32.680 --> 00:13:33.720
mean they aren't important.

00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:34.770
I don't like lobbying

00:13:34.770 --> 00:13:37.880
and I don't like wearing a suit.

00:13:38.420 --> 00:13:39.740
And I had to do both

00:13:39.740 --> 00:13:41.300
of those for this one.

00:13:41.300 --> 00:13:42.700
But it was really important.

00:13:42.700 --> 00:13:45.500
And so I'm glad that we put the effort in.

00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:47.860
So there's two things happening.

00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:51.060
One is that there are a lot of, there

00:13:51.060 --> 00:13:53.580
are companies that sell age verification

00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:56.120
services and they are lobbying

00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:57.880
and spending enormous amounts

00:13:57.880 --> 00:14:01.040
to try to pass age verification,

00:14:01.430 --> 00:14:04.880
meaning not just you say what your age

00:14:04.880 --> 00:14:07.560
is, but your age is verified

00:14:07.560 --> 00:14:11.440
through an ID or facial recognition.

00:14:11.980 --> 00:14:13.580
It's all absurd, frankly, and we

00:14:13.580 --> 00:14:15.430
can get into more detail, but they're

00:14:15.430 --> 00:14:17.610
selling this as child protection.

00:14:17.610 --> 00:14:19.110
But what they're really trying

00:14:19.110 --> 00:14:20.320
to do is sell a product.

00:14:20.650 --> 00:14:23.080
And when they think this huge installed

00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:26.060
base of computers, legislatively, if those

00:14:26.060 --> 00:14:28.330
operating systems are required to use

00:14:28.330 --> 00:14:30.100
age verification, then they are required

00:14:30.100 --> 00:14:31.440
to use these companies' products.

00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:32.440
And they have a huge

00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:33.590
market all of a sudden.

00:14:33.590 --> 00:14:35.440
I've been in testimony

00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.040
with those companies, or provided

00:14:38.040 --> 00:14:40.000
testimony during hearings where those

00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.950
companies are also providing testimony.

00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:44.350
And it just could make you sick listening

00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:47.380
to these arguments that are nonsense.

00:14:47.380 --> 00:14:49.430
And you can see that I had the same thing

00:14:49.430 --> 00:14:50.430
with right to repair

00:14:50.430 --> 00:14:51.640
when we were advocating

00:14:51.640 --> 00:14:53.440
and testifying for right to repair,

00:14:53.880 --> 00:14:56.000
where wheelchair manufacturers and tractor

00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:59.060
shops didn't want right to repair.

00:14:59.060 --> 00:15:00.660
And their arguments are mostly

00:15:00.660 --> 00:15:02.320
people are too dumb to do it.

00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:03.760
And it's absurd.

00:15:03.760 --> 00:15:06.550
But on age verification, when we heard

00:15:06.550 --> 00:15:07.840
about it, we decided it was really

00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:09.470
important for the open source community

00:15:09.470 --> 00:15:11.180
to make the best effort we could

00:15:11.180 --> 00:15:13.360
to avoid open source being,

00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:15.620
or the law being applied to open source.

00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:17.400
For lots of reasons.

00:15:17.860 --> 00:15:19.730
One is we strongly believe the operating

00:15:19.730 --> 00:15:21.180
system should not be a source

00:15:21.180 --> 00:15:22.860
of demographic information.

00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:24.900
And it's easy to combine bits

00:15:24.900 --> 00:15:26.200
of demographic information

00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:27.860
to determine who a person is, and then

00:15:27.860 --> 00:15:29.210
you've identified a person,

00:15:29.210 --> 00:15:31.880
and that has violated their privacy.

00:15:31.880 --> 00:15:34.560
So when we first heard about it,

00:15:34.560 --> 00:15:35.600
we wrote about it.

00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.580
Senator Ball in Colorado had seen and read

00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:40.730
what we wrote about age attestation

00:15:40.730 --> 00:15:41.930
when I wrote the article

00:15:41.930 --> 00:15:44.220
about our position.

00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:47.170
And he wanted to talk about it because he

00:15:47.170 --> 00:15:49.170
couldn't, he had trouble finding someone

00:15:49.170 --> 00:15:51.120
in an open source community to talk to.

00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:52.940
And, you know, an understanding challenge.

00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:54.200
I think we in the community,

00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:55.400
we kind of tend to think

00:15:55.400 --> 00:15:57.320
of maybe politicians and legislative

00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:59.320
process being very forward and far away.

00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:00.720
But I really enjoyed working

00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.060
with Senator Ball because he did listen

00:16:03.060 --> 00:16:04.060
to what we're doing.

00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:05.960
So he asked me to come in for a meeting.

00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:07.710
And the moment I sat down, he said,

00:16:07.710 --> 00:16:09.700
I have all these people coming

00:16:09.700 --> 00:16:11.320
in and asking for carve outs.

00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.660
I'm like, oh, boy, that's the start.

00:16:14.660 --> 00:16:16.960
Because here I am to ask for a carve-out.

00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:19.910
But then we get to talking.

00:16:19.910 --> 00:16:22.090
The first question he asked me was, tell

00:16:22.090 --> 00:16:23.570
me about your operating system

00:16:23.570 --> 00:16:25.040
and what you charge for it.

00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:28.210
And that was a wonderful opening

00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:30.060
because I got to talk about what open

00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:32.740
source is, how it empowers people

00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:35.060
to use it to create their own things,

00:16:35.060 --> 00:16:36.540
what an innovative driver it

00:16:36.540 --> 00:16:38.980
is, how it's entirely free, how its

00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:41.620
characteristics are the complete opposite

00:16:41.620 --> 00:16:45.640
of something like Windows or macOS.

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:47.310
And by the end of the meeting,

00:16:47.310 --> 00:16:49.160
he said, well, I think we should work

00:16:49.160 --> 00:16:51.080
on exception for open source.

00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:53.140
And that was fantastic.

00:16:53.140 --> 00:16:53.890
They invited us

00:16:53.890 --> 00:16:55.340
in for drafting the language.

00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:56.610
We actually drafted a language

00:16:56.610 --> 00:16:57.960
that made it into the bill.

00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:00.880
So we had another stakeholder meeting with

00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:03.240
more people in the open source community.

00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:05.290
And the rest of the authors or co-authors

00:17:05.290 --> 00:17:07.199
of the bill, we talked through it.

00:17:07.199 --> 00:17:11.180
They were all in agreement with why open

00:17:11.180 --> 00:17:12.980
source has different characteristics

00:17:12.980 --> 00:17:15.120
and this type of law wouldn't apply.

00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:16.820
And this was age attestation.

00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:19.740
It's where you say what your age is.

00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.300
You don't have to put in an ID.

00:17:21.300 --> 00:17:23.719
It's not verified by anyone.

00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:25.680
It is, I think, less concerning

00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:26.839
than verification.

00:17:27.120 --> 00:17:28.060
It's still concerning

00:17:28.060 --> 00:17:30.060
because there are ways to take a bracket

00:17:30.060 --> 00:17:33.610
and query that bracket and see

00:17:33.610 --> 00:17:34.780
when that bracket changes

00:17:34.780 --> 00:17:36.720
and then know someone's age, for instance.

00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.620
So just try to avoid those as you can.

00:17:38.620 --> 00:17:40.880
The strategy was to be successful

00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.420
in Colorado, getting an exception in.

00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:45.840
Use that as an example for California.

00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:49.130
And much to our delight,

00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:52.440
I was working with Red Hat and lobbyists

00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.060
in California who had direct meetings

00:17:55.060 --> 00:17:57.660
with the politicians there.

00:17:57.660 --> 00:17:59.500
And we were able to get the exact

00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:01.320
same language in the California bill

00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:02.940
that exempted open source.

00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:04.470
So it was a huge win,

00:18:04.470 --> 00:18:05.720
but the fight isn't over.

00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:07.170
There's a law in Illinois now

00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:09.400
that has no exemptions whatsoever.

00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:12.620
I've heard that there's a law being passed

00:18:12.620 --> 00:18:15.390
around in Congress as well, but I have

00:18:15.390 --> 00:18:17.090
not been able to see a copy of it.

00:18:17.090 --> 00:18:20.740
And so I think if Colorado and California

00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:23.130
could be the example nationally,

00:18:23.130 --> 00:18:25.180
then maybe we can get something done here

00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:27.940
that would circumvent the more abusive,

00:18:27.940 --> 00:18:30.820
abuse was not the right word, but the, you

00:18:30.820 --> 00:18:33.110
know, the, uh, Egregious, maybe?

00:18:33.110 --> 00:18:35.380
Yeah, there's the laws

00:18:35.380 --> 00:18:38.520
that would be more invasive to privacy.

00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:41.040
That's the strategy and what happened.

00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:41.570
Nice.

00:18:41.570 --> 00:18:43.420
Yeah, no, I guess the coverage

00:18:43.420 --> 00:18:44.820
is pretty fitting then.

00:18:44.820 --> 00:18:46.800
I guess I have definitely you guys,

00:18:46.800 --> 00:18:48.500
a big portion of you guys to thank

00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:50.290
because I'm based out of California.

00:18:50.290 --> 00:18:51.720
And so it's awesome to be able

00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.420
to still boot up operating systems

00:18:53.420 --> 00:18:55.880
and not have to put in an age bracket.

00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:57.580
And actually, speaking of this age

00:18:57.580 --> 00:18:59.180
bracketing scheme, there was the whole,

00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:00.570
I don't know if I want to call it

00:19:00.570 --> 00:19:02.740
a controversy with systemd and how systemd

00:19:02.740 --> 00:19:07.030
had the pull request to add in some basic,

00:19:07.030 --> 00:19:08.610
I don't know, would you call it metadata

00:19:08.610 --> 00:19:10.070
or just device identifiers

00:19:10.070 --> 00:19:11.820
that might have had to do with age?

00:19:11.820 --> 00:19:13.520
And I saw very technical people

00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:15.330
say it wasn't a big deal.

00:19:15.330 --> 00:19:16.860
I saw some people say it is.

00:19:16.860 --> 00:19:18.310
So I'm curious how that plays

00:19:18.310 --> 00:19:19.310
into this, if at all,

00:19:19.310 --> 00:19:20.960
or if that's something different.

00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:22.160
And if you guys have had

00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.580
to navigate that as System76.

00:19:24.820 --> 00:19:25.920
The way I think of it,

00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:27.460
it's a field for a birth date,

00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:28.760
but nobody has to use it.

00:19:29.780 --> 00:19:31.000
Pretty simple.

00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:32.082
We have no intention

00:19:32.082 --> 00:19:34.393
of using it in Pop!_OS.

00:19:34.393 --> 00:19:36.390
If a distro wants to, it's fine,

00:19:36.390 --> 00:19:38.140
but anybody can do what they'd like.

00:19:38.140 --> 00:19:39.300
I think some of our engineers had

00:19:39.300 --> 00:19:40.800
some technical issues with it,

00:19:40.800 --> 00:19:42.780
but they didn't like.

00:19:42.780 --> 00:19:44.400
But I don't recall the details.

00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:46.350
I think they thought it might have been

00:19:46.350 --> 00:19:49.060
able to be done in a more secure way.

00:19:49.060 --> 00:19:50.220
But overall, again,

00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:52.920
it's a field that they don't have to use.

00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:55.080
Your phone and your laptop

00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:56.130
don't stop connecting

00:19:56.130 --> 00:19:57.780
just because you stop using them.

00:19:57.780 --> 00:19:59.480
They can still share your location

00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:01.080
and sync data in the background.

00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:02.680
Those connections can help big tech

00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:03.930
and governments track you

00:20:03.930 --> 00:20:05.260
and give hackers a way in.

00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:06.570
But that's why I like to use

00:20:06.570 --> 00:20:07.850
Faraday bags like SLNT.

00:20:07.850 --> 00:20:09.000
SLNT makes Faraday bags

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.040
that physically block wireless signals

00:20:11.040 --> 00:20:13.320
to and from your device.

00:20:13.320 --> 00:20:16.120
If you want a physical guarantee that

00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:18.360
nothing can actually access your device,

00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:20.560
just slide your phone in, close the bag,

00:20:20.560 --> 00:20:22.320
and the connection stops.

00:20:22.320 --> 00:20:24.120
There's no app, there's no settings,

00:20:24.120 --> 00:20:25.120
no subscription.

00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:27.240
It's literally a physical bag

00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:28.440
that physically prevents

00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.150
any signals from leaving.

00:20:30.150 --> 00:20:32.000
It's one of the simplest ways to take

00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.100
some control back over your privacy.

00:20:34.100 --> 00:20:37.956
Check them out at slnt.com slash techlore.

00:20:37.956 --> 00:20:40.280
That's slnt.com slash techlore.

00:20:40.280 --> 00:20:43.450
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00:20:43.450 --> 00:20:44.300
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00:20:44.300 --> 00:20:46.200
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00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:47.300
Now back to the video.

00:20:48.040 --> 00:20:50.140
Something that I have issues with, and you

00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:51.380
kind of alluded to this as you were

00:20:51.380 --> 00:20:52.980
telling the story, is that a lot

00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:54.410
of people, especially in the open source

00:20:54.410 --> 00:20:56.640
world, privacy, security, et cetera,

00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.120
feel quite disconnected from, I wouldn't

00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:01.280
say just politics as a genre,

00:21:01.280 --> 00:21:03.140
but they don't feel like they're ever

00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:05.460
going to have their needs heard or met.

00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:07.350
And I feel like your story is a really

00:21:07.350 --> 00:21:09.800
good alternative to that story

00:21:09.800 --> 00:21:11.720
that is overall told online.

00:21:12.020 --> 00:21:13.130
So if someone's listening

00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:14.680
to this interview and they want

00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:16.970
to know how they can kind of get involved

00:21:16.970 --> 00:21:18.920
or how they can make their voice heard,

00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:19.440
they might not have

00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.400
to write the actual language that ends up

00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:22.720
in the bill like you guys did.

00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:23.660
But what would you overall say

00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:24.760
to people so that they

00:21:24.760 --> 00:21:26.480
can feel a bit more empowered?

00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:27.880
The prime mover for all

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.140
of this was the open source community

00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:32.420
emailing the authors of the legislation.

00:21:33.040 --> 00:21:35.000
That's the entire reason

00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:36.700
that we were able to get involved.

00:21:36.700 --> 00:21:38.120
It did make a difference.

00:21:38.120 --> 00:21:40.480
It was, yeah, it just opened the door.

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:41.790
So writing, you know,

00:21:41.790 --> 00:21:43.520
I can't speak for every legislator.

00:21:43.520 --> 00:21:44.920
The three that I got to work

00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.990
with, it was surprising to me even.

00:21:47.990 --> 00:21:49.670
I've had different situations working

00:21:49.670 --> 00:21:50.520
with legislators.

00:21:50.520 --> 00:21:52.580
But they went in and fought

00:21:52.580 --> 00:21:54.380
for an open source exemption for us,

00:21:54.380 --> 00:21:55.580
along with my testimony.

00:21:55.580 --> 00:21:56.430
And there's a lot

00:21:56.430 --> 00:21:57.780
of strategy going on here.

00:21:57.780 --> 00:21:58.840
It's politics.

00:21:59.340 --> 00:22:00.500
There's weird stuff.

00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:01.730
Part of the reason

00:22:01.730 --> 00:22:04.000
that age attestation was brought up

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.920
was more so to avoid age verification.

00:22:07.320 --> 00:22:09.200
It was like the lesser of two evils

00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.100
because the age verification people

00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:13.020
have this whole strategy of trying

00:22:13.020 --> 00:22:15.100
to get it in later in Colorado.

00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:16.500
So let's try to head it off.

00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:17.800
It was awkward for me

00:22:17.800 --> 00:22:20.590
because I'm testifying in favor

00:22:20.590 --> 00:22:22.140
of a bill that the biggest part

00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:23.970
of it isn't what I'm for.

00:22:23.970 --> 00:22:26.020
But I understood the bigger picture I had

00:22:26.020 --> 00:22:29.720
to keep in mind that this is better

00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:30.820
than what it could be.

00:22:30.820 --> 00:22:33.280
So, yes, emailing and the people

00:22:33.280 --> 00:22:35.080
that got the most that were listened

00:22:35.080 --> 00:22:36.980
to the most that emailed in were those

00:22:36.980 --> 00:22:39.260
that had good technical arguments.

00:22:39.260 --> 00:22:40.440
And the angry letters,

00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:43.240
those they just they just kind

00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:44.540
of get pushed to the side.

00:22:44.540 --> 00:22:47.580
But if you really raise salient points

00:22:47.580 --> 00:22:50.660
with the right representatives,

00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:52.880
they got through in this case.

00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:53.560
Nice.

00:22:53.560 --> 00:22:54.710
So I guess to summarize

00:22:54.710 --> 00:22:56.940
that, contacting them is good,

00:22:56.940 --> 00:23:00.020
productively, not angry, and sticking

00:23:00.020 --> 00:23:01.880
with as technical as they can be.

00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:02.500
Yeah.

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:04.120
It was kind of summarizing that.

00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:05.620
Did you hear from any of them?

00:23:05.620 --> 00:23:07.350
Because I've heard some discussions online

00:23:07.350 --> 00:23:10.320
that a lot of these people

00:23:10.320 --> 00:23:12.290
might not, the emails don't matter

00:23:12.290 --> 00:23:14.080
as much as a phone call, for example.

00:23:14.080 --> 00:23:14.960
I've heard like different

00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:15.960
takes on this online.

00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:17.410
I don't know if you were able

00:23:17.410 --> 00:23:19.200
to kind of get any of that info.

00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.200
And in my case, it was email.

00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:24.720
But I would guess that's per person,

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.780
per representative.

00:23:25.780 --> 00:23:27.980
It's an issue I see a lot because anytime,

00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.500
like when the California law was proposed,

00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:32.500
I made a video about it, kind of overall

00:23:32.500 --> 00:23:35.510
summarizing what it covers, what to do.

00:23:35.510 --> 00:23:37.290
And I always say like, oh, hey, here's

00:23:37.290 --> 00:23:39.940
how you find who your politicians are.

00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:41.760
I'd say like 20% of the comments

00:23:41.760 --> 00:23:43.980
are like, oh, you're an idiot.

00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:45.880
You think that's going to do anything?

00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:48.640
You might as well just watch paint dry.

00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:50.700
And it's like, well, politics is kind

00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:52.300
of watching paint dry sometimes.

00:23:52.300 --> 00:23:55.420
And it's still how it works.

00:23:55.420 --> 00:23:56.930
So it is frustrating for me.

00:23:56.930 --> 00:23:58.880
But that's why I like your story a lot,

00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:00.380
is it really shows that getting involved

00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:01.480
can make a difference.

00:24:02.100 --> 00:24:02.750
You're right.

00:24:02.750 --> 00:24:04.840
We have one example to point to.

00:24:04.840 --> 00:24:05.990
Maybe we can make more.

00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:07.400
Do you have anything else to share

00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:08.770
about that story before I kind

00:24:08.770 --> 00:24:09.880
of dive more into some

00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:12.080
technical aspects of you guys?

00:24:12.080 --> 00:24:15.520
I would urge people in Illinois to look

00:24:15.520 --> 00:24:18.630
at the age attestation law there.

00:24:18.630 --> 00:24:20.680
A lot of the conversations we were having

00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:21.740
about why open source

00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:24.780
should be exempt were in person.

00:24:24.780 --> 00:24:26.140
So I think it might be good

00:24:26.140 --> 00:24:27.240
for us as a community

00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:29.630
to articulate those reasons publicly

00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:31.480
so that we can share them in Illinois

00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:33.860
and with the representatives of Illinois

00:24:33.860 --> 00:24:35.820
and see if it might be possible

00:24:35.820 --> 00:24:38.320
to start a conversation about an amendment

00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:40.760
like the one that happened in California.

00:24:41.100 --> 00:24:41.540
Yeah.

00:24:41.540 --> 00:24:43.360
And I guess before we move on, I should

00:24:43.360 --> 00:24:45.100
ask, because I feel like we're speaking

00:24:45.100 --> 00:24:46.920
about it as if it's a given, but I don't

00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:48.470
think it's necessarily a given.

00:24:48.470 --> 00:24:50.440
What are like, what is the very nuanced

00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:52.840
difference between proprietary versus

00:24:52.840 --> 00:24:54.970
open source software in this context?

00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:56.720
What can someone cite as the reason

00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.460
why open source should be exempted?

00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:01.260
There are a lot of different angles.

00:25:01.560 --> 00:25:03.060
Gosh, I kind of got to dig.

00:25:03.740 --> 00:25:06.330
Yeah, I'd say just like even higher level,

00:25:06.330 --> 00:25:07.780
just a couple higher level ones,

00:25:07.780 --> 00:25:08.580
because if someone's going

00:25:08.580 --> 00:25:10.460
to email a politician, they probably want

00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:12.030
to be able to separate like, hey,

00:25:12.030 --> 00:25:13.780
here's why it's different from iOS,

00:25:13.780 --> 00:25:16.090
Android, etc. I guess regular Android

00:25:16.090 --> 00:25:17.510
that most people are going to be using.

00:25:17.510 --> 00:25:18.680
Well, I kind of recall

00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:20.700
exactly how we discussed it.

00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:23.060
I spent a lot of time on those arguments

00:25:23.060 --> 00:25:25.860
to try to make them clear.

00:25:26.300 --> 00:25:27.310
Now some of them are escaping me.

00:25:27.310 --> 00:25:28.160
But by and large,

00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.490
I think it's that the open source

00:25:29.490 --> 00:25:31.100
community isn't one organization

00:25:31.100 --> 00:25:33.800
that has a direct relationship

00:25:33.800 --> 00:25:36.940
between a customer and a business.

00:25:36.940 --> 00:25:39.300
Everyone that participates in open source

00:25:39.300 --> 00:25:41.690
is the owner of the operating system.

00:25:41.690 --> 00:25:42.940
The GPL does the opposite

00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:44.590
of what proprietary license does.

00:25:44.590 --> 00:25:46.410
Instead of restricting someone's use,

00:25:46.410 --> 00:25:48.740
it guarantees their ability

00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:50.370
to use it in particular ways.

00:25:50.370 --> 00:25:52.220
And that's how the language was written.

00:25:52.220 --> 00:25:53.860
Using that, you know, unlicensed,

00:25:53.860 --> 00:25:55.270
that doesn't restrict the ability

00:25:55.270 --> 00:25:57.380
to download, copy, and modify

00:25:57.380 --> 00:25:59.760
and redistribute the source code.

00:25:59.760 --> 00:26:01.340
Because of that characteristic,

00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:03.600
there's no single entity like there

00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:05.900
is with a proprietary operating system

00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:10.260
to have the responsibility to require

00:26:10.260 --> 00:26:11.860
age attestation or verification.

00:26:11.860 --> 00:26:13.160
And it can just be removed

00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:14.640
by the user anyway.

00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.540
We also talked about the way

00:26:16.540 --> 00:26:18.700
that open source enables innovation

00:26:18.700 --> 00:26:21.270
and requiring age attestation limits

00:26:21.270 --> 00:26:23.320
that in a lot of ways because open source

00:26:23.320 --> 00:26:25.720
is used in ways that are simply automated,

00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:27.080
creating user accounts

00:26:27.080 --> 00:26:29.300
in an automated fashion where there's

00:26:29.300 --> 00:26:31.150
an operating system without any user.

00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:32.440
Even servers.

00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.100
And servers as well.

00:26:35.820 --> 00:26:37.160
In our factory, we have desktop

00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:38.510
operating systems installed

00:26:38.510 --> 00:26:40.420
throughout the imaging systems.

00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:42.520
And not a single one

00:26:42.520 --> 00:26:43.790
of them is a real person,

00:26:43.790 --> 00:26:46.210
and they're all created systematically.

00:26:46.210 --> 00:26:47.340
Those are the kind of things that you do

00:26:47.340 --> 00:26:48.980
with open source, which you don't

00:26:48.980 --> 00:26:50.730
really do in the proprietary world.

00:26:50.730 --> 00:26:52.960
And those kind of functionalities would be

00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:55.820
or could be hindered by age verification.

00:26:55.820 --> 00:26:57.540
I guess you just call it an adult,

00:26:57.540 --> 00:26:58.850
but it's not even a person.

00:26:58.850 --> 00:27:00.350
And we don't even think of it as a person.

00:27:00.350 --> 00:27:01.410
It doesn't have a username

00:27:01.410 --> 00:27:03.240
that is equivalent to a person.

00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:05.040
Those are a couple of the arguments.

00:27:05.040 --> 00:27:06.170
I think it would be good

00:27:06.170 --> 00:27:11.220
to put those together in a really easy way

00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:13.140
for people to pull the ones

00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:15.700
that are most resonant with them and send

00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:18.480
to politicians or representatives to

00:27:19.360 --> 00:27:20.300
make their arguments.

00:27:20.300 --> 00:27:21.000
Very nice.

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.560
I had just kind of random tech questions

00:27:23.560 --> 00:27:26.100
I grouped up here as you were talking.

00:27:26.100 --> 00:27:27.350
I just took a quick note.

00:27:27.350 --> 00:27:29.360
So the first one is, I feel like something

00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:31.060
that people cite a lot with Apple,

00:27:31.060 --> 00:27:32.920
for example, is their ability to do

00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:35.140
like this top to bottom integration

00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:37.050
because they control hardware,

00:27:37.050 --> 00:27:38.090
software, everything.

00:27:38.090 --> 00:27:39.120
And I don't think, you know,

00:27:39.120 --> 00:27:40.380
you guys quote me if I'm wrong here,

00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:41.370
but I don't think you're building

00:27:41.370 --> 00:27:43.420
like your own silicon and it's not

00:27:43.420 --> 00:27:45.310
like down to the chip necessarily,

00:27:45.310 --> 00:27:47.160
but you still have a lot more control

00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:48.940
over this entire user experience.

00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:49.880
And I think that's overall

00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:51.330
what you were speaking to earlier.

00:27:51.330 --> 00:27:53.140
So can you kind of point to some examples

00:27:53.140 --> 00:27:54.540
where you feel like that top

00:27:54.540 --> 00:27:57.740
to bottom integration you have was a real

00:27:57.740 --> 00:28:00.400
strength that maybe people can see

00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:02.740
or if someone has one of your devices.

00:28:02.740 --> 00:28:04.690
I'm just curious because I feel like

00:28:04.690 --> 00:28:06.640
this is a commonly cited thing with Apple

00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:08.290
and it's fun to see it elsewhere.

00:28:08.290 --> 00:28:11.340
What makes Apple unique is that they

00:28:11.340 --> 00:28:14.400
don't enable people to use their software

00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.850
outside of their ecosystem.

00:28:15.850 --> 00:28:16.950
And because they don't

00:28:16.950 --> 00:28:18.350
enable that, they don't have

00:28:18.350 --> 00:28:20.100
to even think about other hardware.

00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:22.380
That's simple, but it's also limiting

00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:24.350
in drastic ways.

00:28:24.350 --> 00:28:26.300
And I mean, you have to buy their thing

00:28:26.300 --> 00:28:27.260
to use their software

00:28:27.260 --> 00:28:29.360
and their software can't go anywhere else.

00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.390
It's a very closed idea of the world,

00:28:32.390 --> 00:28:33.920
I think, and technology.

00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.640
For open source, I mean, back when we

00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.160
started, the lift to make hardware work

00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:41.690
on Linux was much, much greater.

00:28:41.690 --> 00:28:43.240
Not a single hotkey would work.

00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:44.720
Display brightness didn't work.

00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:46.520
Essentially, all of the functionality

00:28:46.520 --> 00:28:48.010
and the embedded controller had

00:28:48.010 --> 00:28:49.460
to be implemented just to get

00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:50.740
Linux working in the way that you

00:28:50.740 --> 00:28:52.230
would expect it to work on a laptop.

00:28:52.230 --> 00:28:53.480
Today, it's a lot better.

00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:54.460
Standards are better.

00:28:54.460 --> 00:28:56.360
The activity of upstream manufacturers

00:28:56.360 --> 00:28:58.580
like Realtek, even Qualcomm

00:28:58.580 --> 00:29:00.380
and other companies that develop

00:29:00.380 --> 00:29:02.660
the chips are making Linux drivers now.

00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:04.820
That means like the Windows world,

00:29:04.820 --> 00:29:07.640
more of the burden of bringing the product

00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:09.680
all the way up is spread across

00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:11.700
the chip manufacturers and the OEM.

00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:13.300
But still today,

00:29:13.300 --> 00:29:15.300
every product we release is a project.

00:29:15.300 --> 00:29:17.240
And it's usually a month to two months

00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:19.200
of engineering at the least

00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:21.200
for a product just on the software side.

00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.630
A lot of times we're doing things

00:29:22.630 --> 00:29:25.550
like audio, uh, and sometimes it's small.

00:29:25.550 --> 00:29:26.820
When you plug in your headphones,

00:29:26.820 --> 00:29:27.800
does the audio mute?

00:29:27.800 --> 00:29:29.340
Because you really don't want your audio

00:29:29.340 --> 00:29:30.690
to continue on the airplane when you,

00:29:30.690 --> 00:29:31.740
if you plug those in.

00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:33.280
Does the sleep and suspend,

00:29:33.280 --> 00:29:35.540
is, is still challenging, and so, uh,

00:29:35.540 --> 00:29:38.760
we've got work with, uh, S0ix, um, uh,

00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:40.940
and, you know, sometimes we ship with S3,

00:29:40.940 --> 00:29:43.100
but we have high standards for being able

00:29:43.100 --> 00:29:46.390
to do, you know, 150 simultaneous suspends

00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:47.440
without any failures,

00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:49.830
and that's what we consider passing.

00:29:49.830 --> 00:29:51.680
So those are the kinds of things, um,

00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.580
all that refinement that is the difference

00:29:54.580 --> 00:29:55.900
between taking a product,

00:29:55.900 --> 00:29:59.000
taking laptop, installing Linux on it,

00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.810
and, like, it's okay, that thing,

00:30:00.810 --> 00:30:02.800
you know, my touchpad lock doesn't work.

00:30:02.800 --> 00:30:04.080
Oh well, that's, you know,

00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:05.130
I can live with that.

00:30:05.130 --> 00:30:06.740
But those are all

00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:08.600
of the fine touches that we,

00:30:08.600 --> 00:30:10.820
we put in so that it's the experience

00:30:10.820 --> 00:30:12.880
that someone buying a Windows computer

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.100
or an Apple computer

00:30:14.100 --> 00:30:15.500
or a Linux computer can say,

00:30:15.500 --> 00:30:17.290
when I bought this, it had as good

00:30:17.290 --> 00:30:19.240
or better experience than those others.

00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:21.090
Yeah, it reminds me actually,

00:30:21.090 --> 00:30:23.040
just crazy bad luck on your guys's end.

00:30:23.040 --> 00:30:25.000
I remember when, and maybe you could speak

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:26.750
to what it was like on your guys's end

00:30:26.750 --> 00:30:29.540
with Linus and his Linux challenge,

00:30:30.080 --> 00:30:31.460
where I guess you might be able

00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:32.540
to tell it better than I do.

00:30:32.540 --> 00:30:33.360
But for people who didn't

00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:34.410
watch this, Linus did

00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:37.060
like a Linux challenge on his channel.

00:30:37.060 --> 00:30:39.160
And I think Luke was the other person.

00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:40.360
He went with Linux Mint,

00:30:40.360 --> 00:30:41.720
Linus went with Pop!_OS.

00:30:42.020 --> 00:30:44.020
And then Steam had like a broken package

00:30:44.020 --> 00:30:46.440
that bricked Linus's system.

00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:47.940
And it was just very bad luck.

00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:48.930
But you can probably explain

00:30:48.930 --> 00:30:50.580
a bit better what happened there.

00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:52.600
It's funny.

00:30:52.600 --> 00:30:53.920
I am working with a number

00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:55.300
of folks right now because

00:30:55.300 --> 00:30:58.480
we're releasing a new product next month.

00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.160
And so a lot of review

00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:01.680
systems are going out.

00:31:02.180 --> 00:31:05.260
And I am not sending an email to Linus.

00:31:05.260 --> 00:31:06.280
I decided.

00:31:06.280 --> 00:31:07.460
I decided.

00:31:08.060 --> 00:31:09.660
It's nothing personal.

00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:11.640
And I don't even believe in luck.

00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:13.890
I don't believe in that, but I think he

00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:15.400
might be bad luck for me.

00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:19.600
And so, no, I'm just not going to do

00:31:19.600 --> 00:31:23.560
that because it was a 24-hour bug.

00:31:23.560 --> 00:31:25.640
It was fixed in 24 hours.

00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:28.500
It was bizarre because Steam didn't run

00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:31.720
because of an issue in systemd.

00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:33.170
They're completely unrelated,

00:31:33.460 --> 00:31:34.940
or you would think so.

00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:39.060
And that's what it was.

00:31:39.060 --> 00:31:40.920
And then, you know, Linus has,

00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:42.890
you know, quite a bit of an ego.

00:31:42.890 --> 00:31:44.440
And I think if a computer says,

00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:45.640
this is really dangerous,

00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:46.990
do you really want me to do it?

00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:48.340
He's just going to say yes.

00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:50.820
So he did.

00:31:51.760 --> 00:31:54.960
But, you know, we're past that one.

00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.340
And there are going

00:31:56.340 --> 00:31:57.980
to be things like that.

00:31:58.400 --> 00:31:59.850
You know, you take your lumps

00:31:59.850 --> 00:32:02.340
when you build stuff and you move

00:32:02.340 --> 00:32:04.220
on and it's all right.

00:32:04.220 --> 00:32:05.590
Yeah, I was curious what it

00:32:05.590 --> 00:32:07.160
was like for you guys behind the scenes,

00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:08.170
because I remember when that happened,

00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:09.130
it was so unfortunate.

00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:10.990
But there were a lot of, like, I think

00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:12.690
a lot of Linux people came forward

00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:14.020
and I think really did a good

00:32:14.020 --> 00:32:14.970
job defending you guys.

00:32:14.970 --> 00:32:16.270
I saw a lot of videos kind

00:32:16.270 --> 00:32:18.270
of, like, defending Linux and kind

00:32:18.270 --> 00:32:20.170
of explaining what happened and why it

00:32:20.170 --> 00:32:22.840
was, like, a very unfortunate time to bug.

00:32:23.040 --> 00:32:24.740
Because all those people it hasn't

00:32:24.740 --> 00:32:25.590
even happened to.

00:32:25.590 --> 00:32:27.000
And they've used it for years

00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:28.100
and it never happened.

00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:30.600
I had another Linus experience

00:32:30.600 --> 00:32:31.620
that was the same.

00:32:31.620 --> 00:32:33.520
This is the second one is when I said,

00:32:33.520 --> 00:32:34.920
okay, this is just bad luck.

00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.380
We released Cosmic,

00:32:36.660 --> 00:32:38.520
and it's a very first release

00:32:38.520 --> 00:32:40.820
of a platform that's going to be what we

00:32:40.820 --> 00:32:42.940
build on for the next 10 years.

00:32:43.190 --> 00:32:45.320
So it's early stuff, you know?

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.910
Well, he just happens to decide

00:32:47.910 --> 00:32:49.360
to do another Linux challenge

00:32:49.360 --> 00:32:57.580
and do it live at a gaming LAN party.

00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:01.360
And we just released this thing.

00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:04.900
It is as fresh as a newborn baby,

00:33:06.760 --> 00:33:09.840
and it's like the very first release

00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:14.000
of when macOS transitioned to their new

00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:16.380
platform and there were some bumps along

00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:18.280
the way to get to where it's at today.

00:33:18.280 --> 00:33:19.800
That's where we were at.

00:33:19.800 --> 00:33:21.820
And sure enough, we didn't decide

00:33:21.820 --> 00:33:23.560
to do it live at a LAN party.

00:33:23.560 --> 00:33:25.240
And man, okay.

00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:30.280
I'm good with Linus.

00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:33.640
Maybe if he wasn't obviously

00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:36.100
so successful as a creator,

00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:40.040
he'd be a great person to hire to test

00:33:40.040 --> 00:33:41.900
to break your products internally

00:33:41.900 --> 00:33:44.790
before they go out into the world.

00:33:44.790 --> 00:33:46.240
One thing to kind of get back

00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:47.520
to the tech stuff, you kind

00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:48.620
of mentioned that Linux didn't used

00:33:48.620 --> 00:33:50.090
to be as good about certain things.

00:33:50.090 --> 00:33:51.700
Like standards have gotten better.

00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:53.670
Overall, it's gotten, I don't want to say

00:33:53.670 --> 00:33:56.180
easier, but some things are no longer

00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:58.140
as big of problems as they used to be.

00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:00.440
But I'm sure there still are new ones now,

00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.700
where would you overall say something

00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:05.100
in the ecosystem that still feels immature

00:34:05.100 --> 00:34:08.030
to you, that is something you're looking

00:34:08.030 --> 00:34:09.690
for in the next five years is going

00:34:09.690 --> 00:34:11.540
to really upgrade people's experience

00:34:11.540 --> 00:34:12.740
once it's kind of resolved?

00:34:12.740 --> 00:34:14.070
I do think about this a lot

00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:15.659
as we're building Cosmic.

00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:17.159
In general, I think if we want

00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:18.340
to be really successful,

00:34:18.340 --> 00:34:20.440
for Linux desktop to be really successful,

00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:25.059
we need to not be afraid of users.

00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:29.350
And I mean that in the sense, in users'

00:34:29.350 --> 00:34:31.179
ability, and build the things that we

00:34:31.179 --> 00:34:32.870
know work really well and just make

00:34:32.870 --> 00:34:34.420
them more accessible to people.

00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:37.520
So when I talk to my team, this story I've

00:34:37.520 --> 00:34:39.760
told plenty of times is about Internet

00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.139
Explorer and Firefox and Opera.

00:34:42.139 --> 00:34:44.260
Back when Internet Explorer had

00:34:44.260 --> 00:34:46.720
a large piece of the market, Firefox

00:34:46.720 --> 00:34:49.580
and Opera were quite a bit smaller.

00:34:49.580 --> 00:34:51.389
Opera came out with tabs first,

00:34:51.389 --> 00:34:52.999
and Firefox came out with tabs.

00:34:52.999 --> 00:34:54.399
We couldn't imagine browsing

00:34:54.399 --> 00:34:55.710
without tabs today.

00:34:55.710 --> 00:34:57.110
Microsoft thought that would

00:34:57.110 --> 00:34:59.380
be too confusing for their users.

00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:02.800
And so they waited years until they

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.080
finally put tabs into Internet Explorer.

00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:06.680
By the time they finally did it,

00:35:06.680 --> 00:35:08.210
they had lost the entire market.

00:35:08.210 --> 00:35:10.360
The point of the story is, don't be afraid

00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:11.960
of being too complex for users.

00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:15.740
They're much smarter, capable, interesting

00:35:15.740 --> 00:35:17.740
people than, than you'd expect.

00:35:17.740 --> 00:35:19.560
So it's okay to build advanced

00:35:19.560 --> 00:35:21.640
interfaces, to not copy.

00:35:21.640 --> 00:35:23.020
Instead of copying,

00:35:23.020 --> 00:35:24.320
try completely new things.

00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:25.920
And I think we're getting better

00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:27.520
and better of that in Linux.

00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:30.500
Wayland seems to have opened floodgates

00:35:30.500 --> 00:35:32.040
to people experimenting

00:35:32.040 --> 00:35:33.740
with different kind of compositors

00:35:33.740 --> 00:35:36.940
with scrolling tiling and animations

00:35:36.940 --> 00:35:40.840
and features that are unique.

00:35:41.040 --> 00:35:43.410
And I don't know what's going to be the

00:35:43.410 --> 00:35:45.410
thing that breaks through, but that kind

00:35:45.410 --> 00:35:47.420
of experimentation is the opportunity.

00:35:47.420 --> 00:35:49.180
It will never happen without it.

00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:50.540
Good answer.

00:35:50.540 --> 00:35:51.750
How do you feel about the mobile

00:35:51.750 --> 00:35:53.480
space right now for Linux?

00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:54.140
phones?

00:35:54.140 --> 00:35:56.140
Is it something you guys are following,

00:35:56.140 --> 00:35:56.990
keeping track of?

00:35:56.990 --> 00:35:57.880
I feel like that's still

00:35:57.880 --> 00:35:59.410
where Linux hasn't quite caught

00:35:59.410 --> 00:36:01.140
up yet is in the mobile space.

00:36:01.140 --> 00:36:02.730
That's a challenging area.

00:36:02.730 --> 00:36:05.040
I have a lot of thoughts about this.

00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:07.890
I wonder what an AI phone might look like.

00:36:07.890 --> 00:36:09.150
There's going to be something

00:36:09.150 --> 00:36:10.630
that disrupts phones.

00:36:10.630 --> 00:36:12.420
There will be just like there's now

00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:15.780
something disrupting Google and search.

00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:16.970
I have a lot of thoughts

00:36:16.970 --> 00:36:18.520
about that, about AI in general

00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:19.970
with when it comes to privacy

00:36:19.970 --> 00:36:22.070
and what's happening in that entire field.

00:36:22.070 --> 00:36:23.710
I think we have a responsibility there,

00:36:23.710 --> 00:36:25.360
open source, because these things

00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.300
are undeniably very useful and powerful.

00:36:28.600 --> 00:36:30.710
And a lot of our customers are doing

00:36:30.710 --> 00:36:32.410
really incredible things with them

00:36:32.410 --> 00:36:34.200
in robotics and healthcare

00:36:34.200 --> 00:36:35.300
and material sciences.

00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:36.250
But I think there's

00:36:36.250 --> 00:36:37.440
probably an opportunity

00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:44.660
to leapfrog the app ecosystem in a way.

00:36:44.660 --> 00:36:46.547
Perhaps if there are really

00:36:46.547 --> 00:36:49.680
well-defined APIs, the application

00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:53.960
could be developed by an AI.

00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:57.520
And then if you're somebody like Spotify,

00:36:57.520 --> 00:37:00.740
your app looks exactly how it should,

00:37:00.740 --> 00:37:02.260
whatever platform it's on.

00:37:02.260 --> 00:37:04.770
If there's a well-defined, well-typed API

00:37:04.770 --> 00:37:06.520
that a simple application interface

00:37:06.520 --> 00:37:08.240
could be built upon, which is a lot

00:37:08.240 --> 00:37:09.540
of things, except for games.

00:37:09.540 --> 00:37:11.140
Games are unique, really unique.

00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:13.040
It might be that because somebody like

00:37:13.040 --> 00:37:14.910
Spotify doesn't want to make four apps

00:37:14.910 --> 00:37:16.960
and maintain four apps across ecosystems.

00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:18.920
And there are things like Flutter

00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:20.920
and Electron that make

00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:23.280
that a bit more approachable.

00:37:23.560 --> 00:37:25.900
But perhaps if somebody like a supplier

00:37:25.900 --> 00:37:27.560
provides an API and you can build

00:37:27.560 --> 00:37:30.360
an app using an API for your platform,

00:37:30.560 --> 00:37:31.940
then that platform can take

00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:35.220
on the burden of the application itself,

00:37:35.220 --> 00:37:36.920
but it fits in with any platform.

00:37:37.140 --> 00:37:37.970
That's interesting.

00:37:37.970 --> 00:37:39.400
I don't know how feasible

00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:40.850
that is or how wild that is.

00:37:40.850 --> 00:37:42.900
Well, you said experimentation and ideas.

00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:44.880
I feel like it's a good example of that.

00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.980
Because the thing that we have to get past

00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:49.190
with phones is those app stores.

00:37:49.190 --> 00:37:49.940
That's the thing

00:37:49.940 --> 00:37:51.320
that I think really holds us up.

00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:53.070
Otherwise, it's just too difficult.

00:37:53.680 --> 00:37:54.960
It's just too convenient.

00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:56.240
You get a smartwatch

00:37:56.240 --> 00:37:57.370
while you have an app,

00:37:57.370 --> 00:37:59.190
and that's how you interface with it.

00:37:59.190 --> 00:38:01.960
It's the same for a bike computer.

00:38:02.380 --> 00:38:04.440
You use an app to interface

00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:06.020
with it and use everything.

00:38:06.600 --> 00:38:09.520
Or a remote for your TV, or a Roku.

00:38:09.520 --> 00:38:12.140
And so sometimes I lose the remote

00:38:12.140 --> 00:38:13.600
and have to use the app.

00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:16.540
But how do we replace that?

00:38:16.540 --> 00:38:18.640
I think that's the key to competing

00:38:18.640 --> 00:38:20.600
and creating an open source ecosystem.

00:38:20.600 --> 00:38:22.450
How do we get past those app stores?

00:38:22.450 --> 00:38:23.960
On the rest of the environment,

00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:25.600
we're building Cosmic to be a responsive

00:38:25.600 --> 00:38:26.900
app that works really well

00:38:26.900 --> 00:38:28.760
from phones all the way up to TVs.

00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.060
So I think from the open source community,

00:38:31.060 --> 00:38:33.400
GNOME is doing it too, and KDE as well.

00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:34.860
So I think from a desktop

00:38:34.860 --> 00:38:36.860
environment standpoint,

00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:39.800
we can build a great, great experience.

00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:41.150
It's just those app stores.

00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:43.460
Do you already have or are you planning

00:38:43.460 --> 00:38:46.060
in the future to have any ARM devices?

00:38:46.060 --> 00:38:46.760
Perhaps.

00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:50.260
I have a strange relationship with ARM.

00:38:51.040 --> 00:38:53.040
I don't feel ARM is very open.

00:38:53.040 --> 00:38:56.600
If there are really good ACPI and EFI

00:38:56.600 --> 00:38:59.920
implementations on a platform, then you

00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:02.400
can install any operating system on it.

00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.080
If not, you just can't.

00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:06.520
And I think that's a terrible

00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:08.200
characteristic of hardware.

00:39:08.200 --> 00:39:09.500
And so we wouldn't release

00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:10.580
hardware that's like that.

00:39:10.580 --> 00:39:11.140
You should be able

00:39:11.140 --> 00:39:12.740
to install any operating system.

00:39:12.740 --> 00:39:14.200
Qualcomm didn't do that.

00:39:14.200 --> 00:39:15.960
And we had Snapdragon hardware

00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:17.500
that we were evaluating.

00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:19.480
And for that reason, we decided

00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:21.810
this was not a good route to continue.

00:39:21.810 --> 00:39:23.360
Qualcomm is working on that now

00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:26.870
to have sane ACPI and EFI implementations.

00:39:26.870 --> 00:39:28.170
That could change the game

00:39:28.170 --> 00:39:30.100
for ARM products.

00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:31.620
But I think that that's necessary

00:39:31.620 --> 00:39:33.420
for it to be an open enough platform

00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:36.600
that we would be really interested.

00:39:36.600 --> 00:39:38.700
Yeah, I just saw in my RSS feed a few days

00:39:38.700 --> 00:39:40.840
ago, we're recording this early October,

00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:43.620
but the new Microsoft devices,

00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:45.670
I think they're using the new Snapdragon.

00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:46.840
I'm not familiar.

00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:47.790
Is it the X2?

00:39:47.790 --> 00:39:48.880
I think they said it's going

00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:49.840
to be Linux compatible.

00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:51.410
Does that impact you guys at all?

00:39:51.410 --> 00:39:52.860
Or is that a different issue?

00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:54.820
It depends how well they do.

00:39:54.820 --> 00:39:55.620
Okay.

00:39:55.620 --> 00:39:57.120
I'll believe it when I see it.

00:39:57.340 --> 00:39:58.320
Yeah, I think it's fair.

00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:58.600
Yeah.

00:39:58.600 --> 00:39:59.770
Microsoft is interesting

00:39:59.770 --> 00:40:00.880
where they choose.

00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:02.110
And maybe, yeah,

00:40:02.110 --> 00:40:04.060
sometimes they choose to support Linux.

00:40:04.060 --> 00:40:05.460
Sometimes they don't.

00:40:06.640 --> 00:40:08.180
Arm makes it really easy

00:40:08.180 --> 00:40:10.280
for hardware manufacturers to lock you in.

00:40:10.700 --> 00:40:11.640
Yeah, that's fair.

00:40:12.100 --> 00:40:13.560
That's not our thing.

00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:15.880
We're going to have an opposite of that.

00:40:16.060 --> 00:40:18.460
So I want to see Arm Silicon

00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:20.010
that doesn't do that.

00:40:20.010 --> 00:40:21.260
Are you looking at RISC-V

00:40:21.260 --> 00:40:22.960
at all or anything else?

00:40:23.580 --> 00:40:27.740
From time to time, but not in much depth.

00:40:27.740 --> 00:40:28.240
Okay.

00:40:28.240 --> 00:40:29.040
AI.

00:40:29.140 --> 00:40:31.472
It sounds like you're not anti-AI,

00:40:31.472 --> 00:40:34.640
but you might be anti how AI can be used

00:40:34.640 --> 00:40:36.590
or the privacy implications, et cetera.

00:40:36.590 --> 00:40:37.770
I don't want to put words in your mouth,

00:40:37.770 --> 00:40:39.620
so please clear up anything to expand

00:40:39.620 --> 00:40:41.290
on how you actually feel about it.

00:40:41.290 --> 00:40:43.720
But are any of the devices that you

00:40:43.720 --> 00:40:46.210
guys have geared towards AI usage?

00:40:46.210 --> 00:40:47.510
Is that something you plan

00:40:47.510 --> 00:40:49.400
to embrace more, push away from?

00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:51.080
I know it's very polarizing in the Linux

00:40:51.080 --> 00:40:53.060
world, so I'd just like to hear a little

00:40:53.060 --> 00:40:55.070
bit about how you guys are juggling that.

00:40:55.070 --> 00:40:56.380
Yeah, I'm happy to share

00:40:56.380 --> 00:40:58.180
my thoughts broadly on it.

00:40:58.880 --> 00:40:59.980
So we build a lot of products

00:40:59.980 --> 00:41:01.280
that are used by companies

00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:04.520
that are developing AI models or doing

00:41:04.520 --> 00:41:06.660
tuning or inference or other areas

00:41:06.660 --> 00:41:08.660
that they're working in, like the fields

00:41:08.660 --> 00:41:11.020
that I mentioned earlier,

00:41:12.979 --> 00:41:15.200
doing pretty cool things in robotics

00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:18.480
or pharmaceuticals or space,

00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:21.100
lots of neat applications.

00:41:21.100 --> 00:41:24.000
My concern isn't the kinds of things

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.380
that they're doing, because they're doing,

00:41:26.380 --> 00:41:28.880
we think of ChatGPT and Anthropic,

00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:30.240
and we think that's AI.

00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:31.620
That's not AI.

00:41:31.620 --> 00:41:33.450
That's one corner of AI.

00:41:33.450 --> 00:41:34.490
That's actually the corner

00:41:34.490 --> 00:41:36.040
of AI I'm most concerned about.

00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:38.240
But the stuff our customers are doing

00:41:38.240 --> 00:41:39.950
is to enhance their products in ways

00:41:39.950 --> 00:41:41.400
that they couldn't do before.

00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:42.920
Robotics are being enabled.

00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:44.590
The big thing that was missing from

00:41:44.590 --> 00:41:46.880
robotics is machine learning in this kind

00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:49.670
of type of capacity where it could.

00:41:49.670 --> 00:41:51.480
It really started with computer vision

00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:52.580
and all this AI stuff.

00:41:52.580 --> 00:41:54.700
A robot that would remove packages

00:41:54.700 --> 00:41:56.090
from a truck would go

00:41:56.090 --> 00:41:57.340
in and grab the one at the bottom

00:41:57.340 --> 00:41:58.780
and the rest of the boxes would fall.

00:41:58.780 --> 00:42:00.900
It couldn't reason through how should

00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:03.390
I actually do this, all of these pieces.

00:42:03.390 --> 00:42:04.540
And now it's able to do

00:42:04.540 --> 00:42:06.220
that, and it's kind of expanding the world

00:42:06.220 --> 00:42:07.520
in really interesting ways

00:42:07.520 --> 00:42:11.280
for manufacturing and automation,

00:42:11.490 --> 00:42:13.250
things that just make us more efficient.

00:42:13.250 --> 00:42:15.200
The things that concern me is that it's

00:42:15.200 --> 00:42:17.900
so useful in a lot of ways that I think

00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:21.100
people are going to give up things they

00:42:21.100 --> 00:42:23.920
shouldn't give up for its usefulness.

00:42:24.560 --> 00:42:25.860
They're going to do things

00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:27.810
that I think are just completely crazy,

00:42:27.810 --> 00:42:31.440
like share their tax return with an AI

00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.160
to see if they miss something.

00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:35.540
Or access to your bank account

00:42:35.540 --> 00:42:38.160
or your retirement plan

00:42:38.160 --> 00:42:40.750
or your user account on your computer.

00:42:40.750 --> 00:42:42.360
You don't know if an AI,

00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.380
if an LLM will reason that sharing

00:42:45.380 --> 00:42:47.480
your private key is the right thing to do.

00:42:48.680 --> 00:42:49.860
You can't know that.

00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:51.930
And it's just too risky.

00:42:51.930 --> 00:42:53.280
But because it's so useful,

00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.760
I'm afraid that people are going to do it.

00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:56.860
Look at the Muse app from Facebook and you

00:42:56.860 --> 00:42:58.590
give your contacts, your transactions,

00:42:58.590 --> 00:42:59.940
your emails, your messages.

00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:02.160
It's your entire life.

00:43:02.160 --> 00:43:04.110
And to have a personal assistant, yeah,

00:43:04.110 --> 00:43:05.890
that's what a personal assistant kind

00:43:05.890 --> 00:43:06.900
of has access to.

00:43:07.240 --> 00:43:09.420
But that human has gone

00:43:09.420 --> 00:43:12.820
through interviews and signed an NDA.

00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:14.980
And there's all these other things

00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:18.150
that go together to trusting that person.

00:43:18.150 --> 00:43:20.560
And we're just handing it over.

00:43:20.560 --> 00:43:22.420
You can hold a human liable, too.

00:43:22.420 --> 00:43:23.970
You can't do it with a machine.

00:43:24.100 --> 00:43:26.140
And you can't, precisely, yes.

00:43:26.520 --> 00:43:29.840
And so it's very frightening to me.

00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:31.680
Because I think it's so useful

00:43:31.680 --> 00:43:33.230
that people are going to do it.

00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:35.220
And as an open source community,

00:43:35.220 --> 00:43:36.520
what we should be thinking

00:43:36.520 --> 00:43:39.680
about is how can we help people get

00:43:39.680 --> 00:43:42.900
this kind of capability responsibly?

00:43:43.300 --> 00:43:43.780
Right.

00:43:43.780 --> 00:43:46.580
You know, small private LLMs

00:43:46.580 --> 00:43:49.880
and carefully sandbox and thinking through

00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.380
security before jumping in the pool.

00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:54.460
You know, all those kind of things,

00:43:54.460 --> 00:43:56.700
because I would rather see a world

00:43:56.700 --> 00:43:59.230
where people didn't need to give those up

00:43:59.230 --> 00:44:01.280
to third parties to have that capability.

00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:04.280
There is a time when I want us to think

00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:06.240
about this because of those reasons

00:44:06.240 --> 00:44:10.080
that people are going to, I think, give

00:44:10.080 --> 00:44:11.980
up too much because of the usefulness.

00:44:11.980 --> 00:44:13.160
And if other people in the open source

00:44:13.160 --> 00:44:14.550
community are thinking about it

00:44:14.550 --> 00:44:16.840
in this way, yeah, I think let's think

00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:20.540
about how we can harness the good things

00:44:20.540 --> 00:44:23.260
without all the bad characteristics.

00:44:23.260 --> 00:44:24.160
You know, maybe we

00:44:24.160 --> 00:44:25.660
can build something that helps

00:44:25.660 --> 00:44:27.980
people avoid giving away so much.

00:44:28.240 --> 00:44:29.100
Very nice.

00:44:29.100 --> 00:44:30.700
Memory prices, is that something

00:44:30.700 --> 00:44:32.000
that has impacted you guys

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.060
at all as a result of AI?

00:44:34.060 --> 00:44:35.800
Is that been a problem?

00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.060
Yeah, they are higher.

00:44:40.620 --> 00:44:41.420
A lot.

00:44:41.420 --> 00:44:43.260
I don't really talk about it much because

00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:44.840
there's nothing I can do and there's

00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:46.390
nothing that's going to change.

00:44:46.390 --> 00:44:48.060
So it's one of the things,

00:44:48.060 --> 00:44:49.220
it's just what it is.

00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:50.540
Computers are more expensive

00:44:50.540 --> 00:44:51.640
than they were before.

00:44:51.640 --> 00:44:52.340
I don't like it.

00:44:52.340 --> 00:44:53.950
I don't think anybody should like it,

00:44:53.950 --> 00:44:56.060
but I don't know when that changes.

00:44:56.060 --> 00:44:57.960
So it's kind of just what it is.

00:44:58.280 --> 00:44:58.590
Got it.

00:44:58.590 --> 00:44:59.790
I wanted to ask earlier,

00:44:59.790 --> 00:45:01.590
you mentioned that you took profits,

00:45:01.590 --> 00:45:02.760
put it back into the company.

00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:04.260
This is early on your journey.

00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:05.666
So are you guys only self-funded

00:45:05.666 --> 00:45:07.760
with your own profits or do you have

00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:09.760
any investors or anything like that?

00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:10.370
We are.

00:45:10.370 --> 00:45:13.760
Yeah, just an organically grown company.

00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:14.100
Nice.

00:45:14.100 --> 00:45:14.660
That's awesome.

00:45:14.660 --> 00:45:15.340
Yeah, congrats.

00:45:15.340 --> 00:45:17.120
I wish every company was done this way.

00:45:17.120 --> 00:45:18.720
It would prevent a lot of issues

00:45:18.720 --> 00:45:19.820
in the world, I think.

00:45:19.820 --> 00:45:20.660
It's not easy.

00:45:22.340 --> 00:45:23.980
It's a challenging way to do it.

00:45:23.980 --> 00:45:26.700
So I don't know the right way, but I love

00:45:26.700 --> 00:45:28.780
the freedom of us just answering

00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:30.700
to ourselves and our customers.

00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:32.060
Okay, congrats.

00:45:32.060 --> 00:45:32.860
It's a big deal.

00:45:32.860 --> 00:45:34.000
And then just kind of what's next.

00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:35.200
I know you said you already know,

00:45:35.200 --> 00:45:36.100
but I don't expect you

00:45:36.100 --> 00:45:37.220
to share everything, but whatever you

00:45:37.220 --> 00:45:38.840
feel comfortable sharing, if anyone's

00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:40.610
listening, they're a big fan of you guys,

00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:42.500
what can you kind of tease for them?

00:45:42.500 --> 00:45:44.520
So we have a new desktop coming out next

00:45:44.520 --> 00:45:46.910
month and I'm extremely excited about it.

00:45:46.910 --> 00:45:48.400
I don't want to share too much because

00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:50.200
there's going to be a reveal and all

00:45:50.200 --> 00:45:52.340
of that, but it is absolutely gorgeous.

00:45:52.340 --> 00:45:54.100
It's a product I'm really proud of.

00:45:54.100 --> 00:45:56.900
We'll be shipping Pop!_OS 26.04 very soon.

00:45:56.900 --> 00:45:58.630
We're on 24.04 right now.

00:45:58.630 --> 00:46:00.580
There was this really long period where

00:46:00.580 --> 00:46:02.210
we're building a desktop environment.

00:46:02.210 --> 00:46:03.220
We shipped 24.04.

00:46:03.220 --> 00:46:06.040
I wanted to ship 26.04 very soon

00:46:06.040 --> 00:46:07.340
after that, but we decided

00:46:07.340 --> 00:46:09.390
to get ambitious and do some more things.

00:46:09.390 --> 00:46:10.620
And so 26.04 will

00:46:10.620 --> 00:46:12.080
be coming out this month.

00:46:12.080 --> 00:46:13.980
Pop is different than...

00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:16.340
We use the numbering that Ubuntu does,

00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:17.790
but we're quite a bit different because

00:46:17.790 --> 00:46:20.040
the kernel, Mesa, a lot of the packages

00:46:20.040 --> 00:46:21.640
are updated throughout its life.

00:46:21.640 --> 00:46:23.620
So it's almost like a rolling release,

00:46:23.620 --> 00:46:25.660
but with a more stable base.

00:46:25.900 --> 00:46:28.410
And Cosmic continuously moves too.

00:46:28.410 --> 00:46:29.960
So your desktop isn't stagnant.

00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:31.550
It's always upgrading.

00:46:31.550 --> 00:46:33.000
The other things I'm thinking

00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:35.760
of are really, really cool.

00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:38.260
And I can't tell you what it is because

00:46:38.260 --> 00:46:40.580
I really want to do a reveal

00:46:40.580 --> 00:46:43.680
when it's ready to show you.

00:46:43.680 --> 00:46:44.980
But the things we're doing

00:46:44.980 --> 00:46:46.170
are both getting smaller

00:46:46.170 --> 00:46:48.750
and bigger at the same time.

00:46:48.750 --> 00:46:50.700
And besides products coming next month,

00:46:50.700 --> 00:46:52.300
next year, we're going to show people

00:46:52.300 --> 00:46:53.690
what we're really, really capable

00:46:53.690 --> 00:46:55.720
of now that we've built Cosmic.

00:46:55.720 --> 00:46:56.720
Cosmic can do things

00:46:56.720 --> 00:46:59.650
that are very, very unique.

00:46:59.650 --> 00:47:00.560
We're going to start showing

00:47:00.560 --> 00:47:01.660
people that next year.

00:47:01.660 --> 00:47:02.120
Wow.

00:47:02.120 --> 00:47:02.700
Congrats.

00:47:02.700 --> 00:47:02.900
Yeah.

00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:03.840
Congrats on everything so far.

00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:05.140
Thank you for the teasers.

00:47:05.140 --> 00:47:07.980
And I guess just a fun question to, you

00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:10.880
know, let's say Pop!_OS was eradicated

00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.760
from the world in some awful event

00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.820
and you have to pick a different distro.

00:47:15.820 --> 00:47:17.520
What are you picking for yourself?

00:47:17.520 --> 00:47:19.360
Oh, I like that question.

00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:21.060
I can't live without Cosmic today.

00:47:22.300 --> 00:47:23.150
It's my favorite.

00:47:23.150 --> 00:47:24.700
You can put Cosmic on any of them.

00:47:24.700 --> 00:47:26.300
Yes, Cosmic's going on anything.

00:47:26.300 --> 00:47:30.280
I'm thinking, okay, can I answer two?

00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:31.140
Is that fair?

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:33.080
You can have a work and personal device

00:47:33.080 --> 00:47:34.020
or however you want

00:47:34.020 --> 00:47:35.420
to split it up or dual boot.

00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:40.240
I would go for CachyOS and AerynOS.

00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:42.900
I really think there are kind

00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:45.260
of neat things happening on both of those.

00:47:45.260 --> 00:47:46.492
And I've used Cachy

00:47:46.492 --> 00:47:48.780
and I've used AerynOS, but not as much

00:47:48.780 --> 00:47:50.300
as I think I would like to.

00:47:50.539 --> 00:47:53.063
So I want to dig a bit more into AerynOS,

00:47:53.063 --> 00:47:55.540
especially if they have some neat stuff.

00:47:55.540 --> 00:47:56.110
Very cool.

00:47:56.110 --> 00:47:57.600
Well, how can people follow you guys

00:47:57.600 --> 00:47:58.660
if they're listening and they want

00:47:58.660 --> 00:47:59.440
to learn more and keep up

00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:00.890
with what you guys are doing?

00:48:00.890 --> 00:48:03.080
X or Mastodon are probably the easiest.

00:48:03.080 --> 00:48:04.740
Just at Carl Richell.

00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:07.300
And System76 is just at System76.

00:48:07.300 --> 00:48:08.600
And pretty easy to find us

00:48:08.600 --> 00:48:09.650
in both those places.

00:48:09.820 --> 00:48:10.480
Awesome.

00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:11.300
Thank you, Carl.

00:48:11.300 --> 00:48:12.100
Thank you.

00:48:12.100 --> 00:48:13.050
And that, everyone,

00:48:13.050 --> 00:48:15.160
was my interview with Carl from System76.

00:48:15.160 --> 00:48:16.740
You can learn more about Carl

00:48:16.740 --> 00:48:19.130
and System76 down in the description.

00:48:19.130 --> 00:48:20.480
And of course, if you liked

00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:22.260
this interview, please give it

00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:24.420
a like or a rating or leave a comment

00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:26.400
on whatever platform you're on to help

00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:28.440
support the podcast and keep it growing.

00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:30.340
And if you want to support what we do,

00:48:30.340 --> 00:48:31.440
become a Techlorian down

00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:32.170
in the description.

00:48:32.170 --> 00:48:33.860
We have a private signal group and it

00:48:33.860 --> 00:48:35.960
keeps interviews like this possible to do.

00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:37.220
Thank you all for watching and I'll

00:48:37.220 --> 00:48:39.020
see you next time on Techlore Talks.